Results by Design: UX Insights for Business Leaders

Description: UpTop’s Craig Nishizaki is joined by Cara Verwholt, Founder & Principal at Cara Verwholt Consulting, where they talk about the challenges and solutions for overcoming organizational silos in large corporations like Amazon, Disney, and the NFL.

With over 15 years of experience, Cara shares practical strategies for building trust, ensuring effective communication, and maintaining a customer-centric approach in large organizations.

Learn About:

• Practical tips for earning trust and facilitating cross-functional collaboration.
• The significance of ownership and empowerment in breaking down silos.
• How leaders can ensure the customer experience remains central amidst siloed structures.

Interview Participants:

• Cara Verwholt, Founder & Principal @ Cara Verwholt Consulting
• Craig Nishizaki, Head of Business @ UpTop

Transcript

Intro:
Welcome to Results by Design UX Insights for business leaders, the podcast that dives deep into the world of UX design, strategy and insights. Tune in, take action, and design your way to success.

Craig Nishizaki:
Hi everyone. I’m Craig, your host for the Results by Design podcast. Joining me today is Cara Verwholt, founder and principal of Cara Verwholt Consulting. Cara is a trusted advisor to CMOs founders and marketing leaders looking to transform their products, processes, and teams. With over 15 years of marketing experience, including roles at Amazon, Disney and the NFL. Cara has deep expertise in building brands, launching products, and creating integrated revenue, driving marketing campaigns at scale. Cara is a mom of two boys and is passionate about finding work-life balance and identifying sustainable strategies that enable working parents to thrive in both their careers and their family lives. Welcome to the show, Cara.

Cara Verwholt:
Thank you so much, Craig. Thanks for having me.

Craig Nishizaki:
Yeah, we are so excited to have you. In fact, you have such an interesting background that we’d love it if you could share a bit about your career journey and how you ended up working at Amazon, Disney and the NFL.

Cara Verwholt:
Yeah, absolutely. Happy to. So I’ve been very fortunate to have a meandering and exciting journey over the last 15 years. So I graduated in 2008 and I share that because that was the great recession and I was very lucky to have a job at all out of school. So my first job out of school was in Charlotte, North Carolina. I went to Elon University, which is in North Carolina, and I landed a job at a Demand Gen company and really got a lot of hands-on channel experience. So I actually started my career in email marketing, which was really excellent for me because I got a firsthand experience, not only into how to use the channel to acquire customers, but really how to make data-driven decisions. So that was a really great place to start my career as a young person out of college. And then I moved to New York City.

So my path took me from Charlotte to New York City where I worked for an early stage company. I worked for an early stage company in the intellectual property services industry, which was a little bit of a departure, a little bit of new territory for me, but that was a great learning experience as well because it was a small company and I got to wear all of the hats, and it was a sales and relationship driven company. So a little bit different from making data-driven decisions and having all the data at your fingertips that was a little bit different, and I learned about how to make decisions in different ways with different pieces of information, sometimes qualitative information. While I was doing that in New York, I was also getting my master’s from NYU and Integrated Marketing and was very fortunate after I finished that program to hear from a recruiter at Amazon and had an opportunity to go out to Seattle and interview.

And I was fortunate to get a job offer on the fulfillment by Amazon team and somehow convinced husband that we needed to move from New York to Seattle where we had never been before and go on a new adventure. And so we did that and I had a phenomenal experience at Amazon. I actually had two different roles with them. We actually moved from Seattle to the Bay Area, and then I worked on the Prime Now team at Amazon. And that was early stage in those days. The app had just launched when I joined, and again, phenomenal experience to have my hands on a ton of data to work with a really motivated team and to be driving a net new product forward for consumers. Then my husband and I, we moved one more time. We went down to Los Angeles. So my first one was born in the Bay Area and we decided wasn’t quite for us, so we moved down to LA and I got an opportunity to work at the Walt Disney Company.

So I started in the studio division. I later moved on to consumer products, got to work on some really cool projects, really cool films while I was there at Disney. But my time spent, I spent four years. There was also just a constant time of transition. So I worked through the Fox Studios acquisition, I worked through the pandemic, I worked through the launch of Disney Plus, I worked through the change in CEOs from Bob Iger to Bob Chapek. So I saw a lot of change in transition. And then finally my career led me to the NFL. So I worked for the NFL and had a phenomenal opportunity to work on digital product marketing and launch their streaming service NFL plus. So it’s been a fun journey over the last 15 years.

Craig Nishizaki:
That’s an amazing journey right there. Thank you. What drew you, you’ve worked in startups and within large organizations, you’ve worked at some of the startup groups within. What drew you to the roles within such large and diverse organizations such as Amazon, Disney and the NFL?

Cara Verwholt:
Yeah. Well, with my marketers hat on, I think I was very attracted to the brands themselves, these heritage brands that mean so much to consumers and to fans. And as a consumer, I had a lot of admiration for these brands and products. I grew up going to Disney World. I’ve been there more times than I can count, and I’m a heavy Amazon user, and I’m of course a football fan. I’m a Seahawks fan from my time up in Seattle Go Hawks. And so I was very drawn by the opportunity to work with these amazing brands, and each one was a little bit different just in terms of the nature of the role. Amazon also, I was very drawn to their leadership principles and their way of working that fit with my personality quite nicely. I mentioned I flew out to Seattle for the interview process.

I went out, I interviewed with eight people in one day, and I had a job offer within 24 hours. It’s a very fast moving culture. There’s a lot of transparency. I really resonated with the leadership principles of ownership and bias for action. They worked for me quite well. So I had a phenomenal experience there. And conversely, for the NFL, it was really about the job itself. I was really excited about the opportunity to work on something as impactful as the launch of a streaming service. So a little bit of everything, but I can’t lie. I was certainly attracted to the heritage of the brands themselves.

Craig Nishizaki:
Yeah, that’s amazing. I think that that speaks to brand affinity trust and the importance of the brand across people’s lives, our own journey as a customer. Right. So what led you to start your own consultancy?

Cara Verwholt:
Yeah, so I left the NFL about a year ago, and I decided to take some time off. So you mentioned in my intro that I’m a mom of two boys. I spent some time with my kids. It was a great opportunity Over that 15 year career journey, I’d kind of bounced from one thing to the next, never really taking a ton of time off in between opportunities. And of course, I mentioned a number of different cities that I’ve lived in. And so my ultimate arrival at consulting was driven by both personal and professional reasons. So after six years in Los Angeles, I’ve actually relocated back to Charlotte, North Carolina where my journey began. So took the opportunity to relocate, take some time with my kids, spend some time with family, and then really think about charting a new path for myself. So I’ve been drawn to consulting work really to focus on the work itself.

Right? I mentioned working at a lot of large organizations, which present a lot of opportunities, but can also present a lot of challenges. Something that we’ll be talking about today, navigating silos. And sometimes when you’re in those environments, sometimes your day-to-day tasks get a little bit away from the work itself. You spend a lot of time building relationships. You spend a lot of time navigating just the organization. You spend a lot of time managing up and down. And sometimes, especially as your career progresses, you might be taken further and further out of the work. So I’m really enjoying that about consulting. I’m really enjoying bringing my perspective of being on the corporate side to the table and the opportunity to work with businesses of all sizes because I’ve had that opportunity in my business. So there’s certainly unique perspectives to be had from startup and early stage companies all the way to the largest organization. So it’s been a fun professional pivot for myself.

Craig Nishizaki:
That’s great. That’s great. Well, you just mentioned silos and large organizations, and I think they’re unavoidable. Can you elaborate on why you think silos are unavoidable in larger organizations?

Cara Verwholt:
Yeah, I mean, unlike the smaller and early stage company culture where the team can be nimble, everyone wears a lot of hats. You can move quickly on things. Large organizations are not that, right? And in a lot of cases, they can’t be that. They have to have structure, they have to have divisions, they have to have clearly stated business units, roles and responsibilities. And so there are going to be those silos. And I’ve experienced a lot of different types of org charts throughout my career, and I’ll give some examples of those. I do think there are some nuances as it relates to the silos. At Amazon, I worked on teams that were structured by business unit Prime Now as an example, fulfillment by Amazon. Those were the teams that I worked on. So of the functional areas servicing those businesses, from analytics to marketing to product management to dev, all of those things were generally contained within the business unit.

And the nice part about that is you’re all kind of working towards a common goal. You understand what needs to be done for the sake of the business because you are structured around that business unit and those businesses priorities at Disney and the NFL, it was a little bit different. Groups and teams were structured around functional area, the marketing team, the business development team, the finance team, and generally those teams were supporting a lot of different business priorities and needing to do that collaboratively. Collaboratively. Excuse me. So there’s a lot of pros and cons to those groupings, but the fact remains the same. If you’re at a large organization, you do have to work cross-functionally across those groups to be successful.

Craig Nishizaki:
And for instance, at Amazon, can you share how silos manifest in a day-to-day operations and decision-making within that versus what you mentioned in terms of where the organization is set up by function?

Cara Verwholt:
Yeah, absolutely. In the Amazon environment, in my experience, we were a team organized around a shared goal. So I think there was a lot of unification around that. But where there were some challenges was where you needed to work with another group outside of your specific division. There’s obviously a lot of cross-pollination within the company, and you have to work with different groups to get things done. And so you’re still kind of coming up against those siloed divisions where there are different priorities across different groups where you may not understand what another group is working on. And then you have to obviously build those relationships and build that trust and communicate effectively to get the job done in the functional area, grouping environment, like at Disney, like at the NFL, most people are working across a number of different projects. And so it’s a constant case of prioritization. It’s a constant case of if you’re asking another team for resources or you’re asking them to collaborate with you, maybe a little more of an uphill battle, right? Communicating why this project is important or communicating exactly what the needs are, because there are a number of different projects that are being balanced where I didn’t experience as much of that as Amazon when you’re working in that business unit group because a shared set of goals, but then you still inevitably have those challenges working outside of that business unit across the organization.

Craig Nishizaki:
Yeah. One thing you just mentioned, or a word that I heard was the importance of earning trust with the teams. Can you share some practical ways to build and maintain that trust that you’ve seen effective?

Cara Verwholt:
Absolutely. I think in the siloed environment, it can take a village to make a decision. That’s just the reality. That’s a good way to put it. Hey, it was a learning for me, coming from a smaller early stage company where you can make decisions fairly quickly because we’re all kind of moving at a fast pace. If somebody has a great idea, great run with it. Go and do you get into the larger organizations, and that’s not always the case. It’s just not always feasible. May take that village to make that decision. And part of your challenge is just getting the right folks to the table to discuss it, to share the ideas, to coalesce around a path forward. That’s step number one. Get the right folks to the table, and then two, figure out how you communicate and how you work together effectively. And I think earning trust is paramount to that.

A, it’s really important to build those relationships from the outset so that when you have the opportunity or the need to bring the appropriate decision makers, appropriate stakeholders to the table, you at least know who those folks are. That’s the practical reality of it too. But then also earning trust, I think just facilitates that communication between teams. If folks know you know what you bring to the table, you have a stated relationship, they’re going to be much more likely to work with you to collaborate, to hear what you have to say, and really create this open environment of effective communication. So I think that’s, as it relates to navigating silos, I think earning trust is of number one importance.

Craig Nishizaki:
And as you started identifying the right people to bring to the table at the right moment in time, because timing is everything and the right conversation to have. What were some of the practical things that you did as a director or a marketing manager to help make sure that that was happening or that you were orchestrating that from your side?

Cara Verwholt:
Yeah. Well, to me, I think the initial steps of earning trust are listening. First absorb information. And this is something that I’ve learned. I can’t say I’ve always done a great job of it. I’ve had to learn this in some new roles and new organizations I’ve come to. It helps to just listen first, absorb information. Don’t think that you have all the answers. Sometimes when you come into a new team or a new role, you feel like you have to prove yourself, and you have to have all the answers. That may not be the best way of working initially. It’s best not to have an assumption that the way it worked somewhere else, some other place that you were at, some other team you’re on is necessarily going to work here. So listen first, absorb that information, then figure out how to lead and also be patient.

Earning trust takes time. It’s worthwhile to put the effort into those relationships to A, just know the lay of the land, know who the stakeholders are, what people do, what are their ownership areas, who needs to be involved in decision making, and that’s something that comes through observation. As you go to a couple of different meetings, as you see a couple of different projects, tape shape, you can say, oh, I know who the decision makers are. I know who needs to input on this piece, or I know who I need to go to for advice on this X, Y, Z thing. So taking the time to really establish those relationships and really understand the flow of information between those relationships, I think is a critical first step.

Craig Nishizaki:
Yeah, that’s great. So understanding the information, getting a great sense of where everyone’s priorities are and making sure that you’re helping them align with what you’re trying to accomplish is overarching what you’re doing. That’s right. You discussed the significance of ownership and empowerment, part of what you were just saying, and how does that look when you’re working with these other teams that are siloed?

Cara Verwholt:
I think taking ownership is a important step in building the relationship and earning that trust, showing a willingness to get in the trenches, obviously, to be careful not to overextend yourself, but I think if you demonstrate that you’re a team player that’s willing to maybe go outside of their initial stated scope to get the job done, you’re likely to earn that stakeholder trust. And I think ownership is just a really important piece of the puzzle. I mentioned Amazon’s leadership principles and those really resonating with me, and that was something, ownership was something that stuck with me. Ownership and bias for action, those are two principles that have stuck with me and been important to me in my way of working, and I value that a lot. I value that in others where I see that willingness to really partner and get the job done. The empowerment piece is also very important in that, especially if you are a people manager, empower those that you lead to be owners.

Give them the space to do that. What I have always done with teams that I have worked with, I call them swim lanes, right? I’m sure there’s other ways to describe it, but literally on a piece of paper, write down the swim lanes for folks on your team so they have clear definition of what it is that they own or are expected to own, right? This is the space that you own and this is where you flourish, but also find those opportunities for growth, for stretch assignments, for experimentation. But having a clear idea of ownership is important, demonstrating that ownership is important, and then empowering others to feel that same sense of ownership is really important in that earning trust stage.

Craig Nishizaki:
Yeah, that’s great. Thank you for covering that. I was going to ask you as a follow-up about how you help empower your team, because in your role, you were managing people to go out and do the work or pursue the initiative, and so that was great that you were able to answer that in that way. So another question I have is about how leaders can ensure that the customer experience remains essential focus amidst the siloed structures. I know, like you said, if teams are structured by function, oftentimes that function becomes the priority versus the customer experience perhaps. And how did you navigate that in those types of roles?

Cara Verwholt:
Yeah, so I know that you have previously discussed how a negative customer experience is likely a reflection of a silo. I think that’s come up in one of your previous episodes, and I completely agree with that. The customer experience is a byproduct of the work of each contributing, right? Again, takes a village in those cases. And so if any one of those elements are breaking down and it’s consumer facing, it’s just going to be more apparent overall, right? Teams need to be working effectively internally so that externally, there’s a great experience for the customer. And of course, every company that I have worked for wants to put the customer first. They want to put the fan first, but it’s of course not so simple. In practice, there are challenges to that. Companies need to be profitable to survive. Sometimes there are trade-offs that impact the customer experience, or sometimes we, as product owners and marketers, we get really excited about a product feature or a tech innovation that on the surface seems like it’s going to be really impactful for the customer, but in practice, maybe it’s confusing or impractical.

There’s always those necessary checks and balances that have to happen to ensure that the customer experiences is being upheld. So whatever the case may be, I think again, continuing to build those bridges across silos is important. And I think one of the ways to do that is by advocating for the customer first in that process of earning trust in the process of building relationships, in the process of having those dialogues with other teams about a project that needs to get done, approach it from the customer point of view. That could be a great way to bring everybody together and really think collectively about a solution or a challenge for the customer. So if a stakeholder team maybe isn’t prioritizing your project, it might be a good tactic to describe how important this is from the customer, because I think that’s something really that everyone can get on board with or at least lend their perspective to, right? There may be differing perspectives about that, but I think it’s a great topic of conversation to really spur that collaboration between different functional teams.

Craig Nishizaki:
Yeah, again, that’s another Amazon principle, customer, customer focus, customer first. Do you feel like if your career had followed a different path where Amazon wasn’t the first large enterprise group or organization or company that you joined, that your approach and perspective may be different?

Cara Verwholt:
That’s a really interesting question. I do think that having that experience fairly early on in my career really did shape and impact who I am as a marketer, who I am as a leader. I mentioned I started my career with a good access to data. I started as a channel marketer, so I did have a good early education in data-driven decision making. I think Amazon really just ramped that up significantly because there was so much access to information. There was so much access to data, and I’m a very hands-on person, and Amazon is a great place to do that. I learned SQL queries, I learned how to write sql. That was great. I had a lot of information at my fingertips. I could figure out how to mine it, or I knew folks to talk to. Really have really intriguing conversations about what, seeing with the data, what we’re seeing from a customer perspective.

And it opened up a lot of possibilities for me as a marketer. So I do think it really shaped my career path. And then frankly, it gave me a lot of great foundational building blocks for looking around corners, making really informed decisions, things that were very critical later on in my career at the NFL as an example, launching a streaming service, really thinking deeply about the customer experience, looking around corners, trying to preempt certain things and then plan for certain things. I think I have a lot to think from my Amazon experience and just the access to information, the access to data, and how to make really solid decisions that you feel empowered by, empowered to go and do.

Craig Nishizaki:
When you say looking around corners, do you want to dive deeper a little bit into what that means?

Cara Verwholt:
Yeah, absolutely. So really thinking through, not necessarily what can go wrong, I don’t necessarily think it’s a fully pessimistic view, but just thinking deeply about, okay, I’ve thought about maybe this step in the customer journey. Then what have I solved for maybe what happens next? Am I thinking long term about maybe I’m working on a campaign that has more of a short-term outcome or a short-term goal? What’s the longer term implication of that? Or as a marketer, you’re perhaps touching so many different channels, so many different programs. Am I thinking about how all these messages work together for the consumer? That can be very complicated to think through. So having that ability to just think a few steps ahead, think about what’s next, maybe think about what could go wrong, but also think about what could go right and how do we preempt that and how do we build a better customer journey holistically.

I think that’s a really important skill, and it’s hard. It’s hard when you’re stretched thin. It’s hard to do that. It’s hard when you have a specific campaign or project or milestone that you’re working towards to add a lot of additional layers of thinking to it. But it’s really important. It’s a really important skillset that I picked up, particularly at Amazon where we just, particularly on the Prime Now team, working on a net new product in a net new territory. This was rapid grocery delivery 10 years ago when this was more of a novel thing, and you’re learning new things every day, new things are happening, new pieces of information are coming in, there’s challenges, there’s opportunities, and being able to start to preempt some of those things. So you’re prepared is a really critical skill.

Craig Nishizaki:
Yeah. Oh, that’s amazing. So in addition to being able to look around corners, are there any other key lessons that you learned about managing and navigating silos in large organizations that you’d love to share?

Cara Verwholt:
Yes. So I think I’ve mentioned this a little bit, but the transparency of information is really important in my mind, perhaps seconds to that earning trust piece, I think it is really important to share information when it’s available. I’ve talked about my Amazon experience, and one of the things that was great about that experience is there was a ton of information available. We gathered as a team to discuss performance on a weekly basis, and everybody had access to the information, and we knew where we stood. We knew what the progress was against goals. We had information available to be able to deep dive things that we were seeing and really gain a good contextual understanding of business performance. And that’s not the case in every environment. Sometimes it’s hard to get access to information, it’s hard to get access to reporting, or you have to go through three different teams to be able to get an answer to a particular customer insight or data question.

And that does make it challenging. When you don’t have that easy flow of information, it makes it challenging to work cross-functionally because you’re maybe not all necessarily working from the same playbook, or not every team has the same understanding of progress towards a goal or where the opportunities lie. And so I think being transparent with information is critical. When you have information, make sure to share it. Something that I have always enjoyed in large organizations that I’ve worked with is creating a monthly or quarterly series with a different stakeholder group so that you can just sit down and share information, like a monthly meeting with the finance team, so finance can share with you, here’s how you’re tracking against your budget. Here’s how we’re tracking against goals. You can have a conversation. Things are less surprising. It can be an open and honest conversation around business priorities and where the business stands. I’ve always found that to be more fruitful to drive that collaboration than having to go chase information and piece things together.

Craig Nishizaki:
So you’re running it like a business. You’re running your initiative like a business, which I think is amazing. That’s right. That’s right. Yeah, that’s great. Or actually, let me ask you this. What advice would you give to leaders in business marketing product and UX roles who are struggling with silo related issues in their organization?

Cara Verwholt:
Yeah. Well, the first thing that I would say is it might not be you. It might be the organization. You just need to be honest about that with yourself sometimes. And I’ve certainly had the experience where I’ve come into a new role and I just feel like I’ve lost my touch. I question myself. I doubt myself. I say, what’s going on with me? Am I, do I not have the skills or abilities that I thought I did? Because maybe you’re hitting those walls or maybe you don’t have the information that you need, and you’re finding that things are just they’re not working right. And it’s easy to doubt yourself in those situations, but I think, again, be patient, right? Going back to what we discussed earlier, take the time to absorb. Give yourself that time, really understand how the organization works, understand how it’s structured, who you need to work with for certain things, and observe how decisions get made.

And I think that’ll give you a lot of empowerment to figure out how to work through those things. And it’s try not to get too frustrated when things take time, right? Good things take time. Difficult things take time. Oftentimes in large organizations, it may seem like the pace of innovation is slower. It may seem like it’s really hard to be a change agent, but I think you just need to know how the silos operate in order to push for that change. And it may just take a little bit longer to push for that change, but it’ll come if you’re persistent.

Craig Nishizaki:
Well, that’s great. That’s sage advice right there. And what’s interesting is coming from a corporate role and now being a consultant, how does all this experience play out for you in your new roles?

Cara Verwholt:
The patience piece is important, and I think I have a good perspective, at least from sitting on the other side of the table, that, hey, as a consultant, I might see something that needs to get done. I might identify an opportunity, but I at least hope that I have a realistic view of how that decision needs to get made. On the other side, how someone I’m working with might need to advocate for resources to get that particular initiative done. I do have a good perspective, at least on what it takes to be able to drive and advocate for that change. So that’s one of the things that I enjoy. It’s an entirely different perspective being the consultant, seeing these low hanging fruit opportunities or trying to advocate for transformation. That’s something that I’m passionate about in my consultancy. Looking at transformational events like rebrands distribution strategy pivots, product launches, that type of work is exciting to me. But yes, these are complicated, complex projects. So again, having that patience, that fortitude, thinking about really how does that decision need to be made? Who are all the appropriate stakeholders? Where do we need to get that buy-in? What are pieces of information that I maybe can provide as the consultant to help move that conversation along? I’m very happy to have had the big corporate experience to be able to bring that perspective to the table when I work with clients.

Craig Nishizaki:
That’s great. And do we think we missed anything? Is there anything else you’d like to share about your experience or insights in organizational silos and driving innovation?

Cara Verwholt:
I think the last thing that I’ll touch on is senior leadership’s role in all of this, like the C-suite and the SVP level. I do think senior leadership plays a really important role in setting the tone and vision from the top to really drive that collaboration, to drive that innovation, to drive that information sharing. They play a critical role in fostering transparency and that way of working between teams. And I think it also helps when the business goals and project priorities are clearly set from the top, that level of clear communication, that vision for where the business needs to go and how the business is going to get there, that’s really important to all of the downstream teams that are going to be working on that. And I’ve certainly been in environments where there are folks at the SVP level that have competing priorities on their plates.

Sometimes that happens. We as well, I’m sure you have. Sometimes that happens where there’s two different initiatives that maybe would cannibalize the other, and the company’s going to try it and see what sticks. And that’s challenging, right? That’s challenging for downstream teams to work through because now your leaders have competing priorities. There’s only a finite number of resources that can address those different priorities. So sometimes, frankly, it does create a little bit of confusion. It creates some of those challenges in working together. It’s a little harder to earn that trust because this person saying their project’s the most important. This other team is saying their project’s the most important. So I think really being able to set clear sets of priorities from the top down, communicating that clear vision is really important to help those in the organization really work effectively, especially if it’s siloed, especially if it’s matrixed, as long as we all know what it is that we need to be focused on. That’s a great point for all of us to come together and coalesce on.

Craig Nishizaki:
And if you are working in an organization where there is that perhaps lack of vision or clarity from the top, then all of the strategies and insights that you provided are the ways to get the alignment to get them, at least give them a view into what you’re working on to see if you can get alignment on that vision. Right?

Cara Verwholt:
Absolutely. Yeah. Going back to the customer piece of it could be critically important in that and really thinking through, okay, great. We have these two priorities that seem like they compete. What does this mean for the customer? Again, they’re looking around corners, right? Let’s really sketch out what either of these scenarios or either of these approaches mean for the customer. That

Craig Nishizaki:
Can be, yeah, that’s an amazing high value activity that you can do for them.

Cara Verwholt:
Absolutely.

Craig Nishizaki:
Yeah, absolutely. Well, this has been great. I really appreciate you taking time to speak to me and speak to our audience and share your experience and your wisdom. If people wanted to learn more about you and want to learn about your consultancy and the work that you do, where can they find you on la?

Cara Verwholt:
Absolutely. So please look me up on LinkedIn, Cara Verwholt, and you can check out my website as well, caraverwholtconsulting.com. You can learn a little bit more about me, my career path and the work that I’m doing today. So I’d love to hear from you.

Craig Nishizaki:
Oh, that’s great. Yeah, and I’d love to keep the conversation going with you as well. I always enjoy talking with you.

Cara Verwholt:
Thank you so

Craig Nishizaki:
Much. So that’s it for today’s show. Join us again next time as we explore innovative approaches to enhance your products and services, optimize customer interactions, and ultimately drive success for your organization. Tune in, take action and design your way to success.

Outro:
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